Apologize for net or edge ball?

I think it's just common-sense sportsmanship to apologise for a bit of luck...nothing specific to table tennis.  You see professionals lift their finger to acknowledge lucky shots...not just tips and edges but also mishits.

Having said that, some professionals barely seem to make an effort to apologise at all.  They first run around pumping their fists, and then half-raise an imperceptible finger when the opponent's back is turned.

Generally speaking, in my experience, regular club players are much more friendly than professionals (I guess less at stake!).  People don't just lift a finger, but verbally apologise as well (or maybe people are just more friendly in laid-back Canberra!).

Personally, I don't think all edges are the same.  If I hit a great shot, and I AIM for the corner, and it would have been a winner anyway but it partially clips the edge of the table - I actually consider that not a question of luck.  In that case I generally don't apologise.  But if I've been totally outplayed in a rally and would have lost it but get a lucky tip that turns the tide, I would be extremely apologetic.

Similarly, whether or not I get angry with an opponent not apologising depends on the nature of the tip/edge.

i love it when i get a net or an edge ball but i always apologize coz i hate it when other people don't apologize. the net can also help when someone smashes it and it comes off the net alot slower thats always handy.

I played fairly regularly in the British National League & occasionally in the German Bundesliga in the early 80's. Being British it was common courtesy to apologise for a lucky edge or net and "one should never applaud an opponents mistake" However we often liked to follow the examples (many bad!) of the top district, regional and International players by celebrating our own lucky (or was it accurate?) shots and then going on to celebrate our opponents poor concentration errors (or was it "forced" ?)

Of course it upset me many times when my opponent would cheer his own luck then celebrate my every mistake, forcing me to loose more focus/concentration!!! MY SOLUTION eventually was, and still is today, to immediately say; "GOOD HIEGHT, GOOD LENGTH or GOOD WIDTH" closely followed by "CANT BEAT ACCURACY LIKE THAT" as I stare back at my gloating opponent and pointing at the net or edge whilst focusing my mind on the next point.

Psychology is so important in our sport, learning to control & use it often helps!!

As an ITTF coach & course conductor, nowadays (thanks to Alois Rosario) I still have agreat belief in accuracy and consistency training in every aspect of our sport. Our youngest cadets learn thier basics by completing skills awards and it doesn't take very long for a 10 year old to consistantly hit a 30cm (12") vertical target from any area of thier court. Eventually they become proficient with repetitively hitting a 15cm and smaller vertical target................ so can we train to hit the edge or net and put the ball exactly where we want it from both wings????

At least we don't need to argue like John McEnroe that "The ball WOZ on the line!!!" unless the umpire and opponant are blind & deaf!!!

OF course i geet annoyed when an edge occurs but then on the contrary i never appologise or raise finger(lol)

I also never knew that u raise ur finger to appologise

of course i hate when i lose a point in that way. in my case, i dont spect courtesy when my opponent has a lucky point, so, if my opponent dont apologyze i dont care. be in that way is better for me, so i dont feel angry with anybody.

Yes, I always apologise for any nets and edge balls regardless of the nature. Most of the time I don't get annoyed when my opponents don't apologise, because I can understand that they are happy that they are lucky enough to hit an edge or net ball.

However, I would like to share with you guys about one of my friends, who plays with me alot of times, used to apologise in the past matches. But now, in the recent matches we play together, whenever he made any net/edge balls against me, not only he doesn't apologise, he laughs wiwth sarcarsm and says "Yes! HAHAHAHAHAHA!". Truthfully speaking, I got very annoyed at that moment, and I played more aggressively for the rest of that match.

We totally had 16 match encounters, and I won it all. He didn't get to win my in any match, so far, at most he can only pull me off 2 games in a best of seven match. If this is the reason of why he is laughing instead of being polite and apologise for a net/edge ball, I would consider him a sore loser. Another factor that I can say that, is after a match, when I went up to shake his hand, he ran away from me and made me chase him. I was very annoyed at that moment too.

Hmm, I can't believe such players exists, and worse still, it's a friend that I know! 

I've discovered there is another angle to this whole "apologise for let or tip" issue.  There is sometimes disagreement about whether a ball really tipped the table or not (or whether it tipped the edge or the side).  Players often apologise loudly as a way of letting everyone know that it tipped.  So, even as they are saying "sorry", they are REALLY saying "that was a tip!  that was a tip!"

If your opponent doesn\'t apologize and that makes you upset, then it\'s a weakness in your game.  Stop expecting it.  Whether your opponent apologizes or not should not make any differences to your game.  If your opponent celebrates after every point, don\'t let that bother you either.  The more weakness you show, the more your opponent will exploit it.

Since the laws of physics work the same for both players, at least on this planet, "apologizing" for a lucky net or edge ball is simply silly.  Luck is luck, is luck...it's not as if one player has a physcal advantage in getting edges or nets.  Some players may seem to get more edge balls, but that's simply because they probably try to play a larger percentage of their returns close to an edge. 

Personally, the only time I want an edge to be discussed is just so that both players (in a non-refereed match) agree.

 I would rather see most players put their apologetic energy into discontinuing the embarassing "cho!" after every won point, regardless of how the point was won.  If the purpose of apologizing for edges and nets is to demonstrate sportsmanship the vast majority of "cho!ers" could demonstrate a heck of a lot more sportsmanship by quitting the "cho!" stuff and forget apologizing for the edges and nets.

i agree with what Keith said. there really is no need for apologizing when it comes to luck.

i was at at a table tennis tournament 2 monthas ago and i realized everyone was apologizing for lets, nets, and edges. soon i got kind of annoyed. if you made an edge and your oppent dived in an attempt to recieve it, then you shold say sorry, but just an edge is no big deal. apologies are really for something bad you did purposely.

I agree with Keith. I don't see the point in apologising. And I really don't like it when people apologise after they smash a high return from the opponent (caused by a net/side-edge), because if they were truly sorry, they wouldn't smack it.

I allways say sorry after a net or edge ball, cause thats not the way I like to make points. It doesnt anoy me if opponents dont aknowledge their luck. No opponent has been celebrating my own mistakes yet, that would propably annoy me, but I would try to control it.

I do get annoyed at my cursed luck if opponent gets lots of net and edge balls (more than 7 or allways the matchball), though again I try to control my feelings. Every time I do get annoyed I play bad and get more annoyed and play even worse:)

I generally do raise a hand or finger and say sorry for edge and net shots.

The only exception is when they had no way of getting the shot back anyway.

Do footballers say sorry to the goalkepper when they shoot in the post and in?

Luck is just a part of the sport.

Hi John,

It is interesting how different sports handle luck. Footballers might not apologise for hitting the crossbar but Tennis players generally do if they get a lucky break by hitting the top of the net. 

I do agree on apologies for Net\'s and Edge\'s, However, during the spirit of the game and if it is friendly game. I would jokingly say "I deserved that" (If I was losing). Just to add some humour and enjoyment in the game. I would definitely apologise for the luck in competition though.

Soccer is probably the worst sport when it comes to sportsmanship...

Perhaps the one-on-one sports apologies for luck more?  Certainly they generally apologise for luck in tennis, as well as table tennis.  Not sure about badminton, squash, etc...

I ask myself, "What would Timo Boll do?"

 And the answer is always, "Be a perfect sportsman. And apologize for any nets or edges."

I get annoyed if its close and the opponent doesn\'t apologize.

I laught and then I apologize

Steve, I could not disagree with you more. It's one thing to practice and improve your accuracy. It's one thing to aim for an area of the table where your opponent cannot get to it. However, it is ANOTHER thing to a hit a shot (e.g., a net or edge) that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for your opponent to have a fair chance to make a play on the ball.

When you hit a scorching forehand past your opponent, it is YOUR skill that enabled you to win the point. When your ball happens to graze the net or scrape the edge of the table, it is because of completely random chance that enabled you to "win" the point.

Table tennis, in my view, is a gentleman's game. Because it is such an intense game in which you are so close to your opponent, sportsmanship is paramount. By apologizing for (or at least acknowledging) a net or edge ball, you are you giving your opponent the respect he/she deserves, the respect that I hope to receive from any and all of my opponents.

Timo Boll, for example, is the embodiment of sportsmanship. 

Steve, you stated, "I also highly resent you implying that our shots should be made that everyone should be able to get to them." However, I believe you have misunderstood my original statement: "...  it is ANOTHER thing to a hit a shot (e.g., a net or edge) that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for your opponent to have a fair chance to make a play on the ball." Please allow me to clarify. You should not be hitting shots that everyone should be able to get. On the contrary, I think we both agree that it is a testament to a player's skill if he/she hits a shot an opponent cannot reach. However, my distinction lies in the the fact that players deserve a fair chance at the ball. Of course, players will hustle and run to attempt to salvage a net or edge ball; many times, they end up winning the point! However, not all nets are the same. Not all edges are the same. A good shot remains a good shot, with or without the aid of a randomized, erratic ball path caused by the edge or the net.

As for your reference to my supposed advocacy of "patty cake" playing and learning serves to "look pretty," I think you are making unwarranted assumptions about how I would react would someone not apologize. No, I did not say that I would "sit in the corner and cry," nor would I call anyone a "meanie." To be honest, I couldn't care less if my opponent does not apologize for his/her net/edge ball. Simply, I stated that I do apologize, and I can only hope (surely you cannot fault me for hoping?) that my opponent would do the same -- however, I would not think of you less if you didn't.

Does showing my opponent the respect that I feel he/she deserves make me a hypocrite? No, I believe it makes me a true sportsman. Perhaps for you, who feels the need to irrelevantly mention your instructor's rating as if to prove your mettle vicariously, sportsmanship may mean something different.

May your loops be spinny, Nick 

Nick, Before I belabor a rebuttal to your incredulous ranting, why do you keep talking about a net ball; as I said, a net ball is a different story. Obviosly, we run/walk on different sides of the fence. I cannot engage much for now since you keep refering to the line " a good shot, with or without the aid of a RANDOMIZED, ERRATIC ball path caused by the edge or the net ". There is nothing randomized, erratic about my tomahawk serve. I would certainly not apologize to you if I am successful on doing what I want the ball to do. You are absolutely incorrect in that "that players deserve a fair chance at the ball". This is not a rule of table tennis. By the way, you mentioned Timo Boll. I just so happen to play with someone that has trained with him. I cannot continue on now as, I, must  talk to my bedroom walls before falling asleep. See you on the "EDGE" , Steve

Steve,

You've made both your points, as well as the type of player you are, exceedingly clear in your last post. 

I apologize for bringing up the net ball; yes, you continuously and specifically refer to the edge ball, which you claim holds distinct significance because you practice hitting the edge. Allow me to pose one more question: after you can confidently hit the edge with your serve every time, what is next in your training regimen? Perhaps you should aim to hit the edge with not just serves, but every shot? When this skill is mastered, I suggest that you practice hitting the top of the net with every shot. Indeed, once you can hit the edge or net with every shot you hit, I believe (and surely you must agree!) that you will finally reach the highest echelon of table tennis that all but the highest-caliber players aspire to. Indeed, I'm confident all players you encounter will regard you with the utmost respect.

You also stated, "You are absolutely incorrect in that 'players deserve a fair chance at the ball'."  I certainly would not expect you to apologize for an edge ball, and I believe that this statement adequately demonstrates the type of player you are. 

I am sorry you feel the need to discuss this matter with your bedroom walls before sleeping, Steve. At least you have found someone (or rather, something) that agrees with your views on sportsmanship. 

Nick, Go back and read your reply to me and think about it before you embarass yourself more. Maybe a third party could intervene here, preferably one that has been following these rant and raves on your part. To answer part of your "whatever", yes , I do try to work the edges. When you score a point, do you profusely apologize ? Again, have a nice game; see you on all the edges, Steve, ps; notice I did not mention the net but once I master all of the edges I will work on trying to hit the ball around the net, which is legal which I am sure you know since it does concern the net. Have a nice life!! By th way, have you ever considered getting into coaching, since you appear (in your own mind) to have a deep understanding of the game amd the individuals that play this wonderful game

To all that may be following my character assisination,

Is it necessary to apologize for a planned event as compared to an erratic happening in which an apology would be in order? I cannot make this understood by my opponent, Nick, as he is operating from a platform of incoherent, non-discernable,inuendo's. I, in my opinion, do not believe that all of his neurons are firing in a proper biological sequence.

I would appreciate any comment, pro or con. This is a wonderful site for learning and voicing our opinions, whether right, distorted, or whatever, Steve

Remember, you can always change the color of your walls easier than your own self-appraisal and the appraisal of others.

"To all that may be following my character assisination [sic] ...  I, in my opinion, do not believe that all of his neurons are firing in a proper biological sequence."

I hope that the above juxtaposition makes your your hypocrisy exceedingly and sufficiently clear to our fellow readers. 

OK, guys, parts of this thread have been an interesting, almost philosophical, discussion on the ethics of our great sport, but this is all turning a bit ugly now so can we close the subject down without any more arguments?  Please?  :)

Thanks for all your interesting points.

Gord 

Gordon!

Wise words, indeed. I am glad you found our discussion interesting.

I always apoligise for my nets and edges just because I know it sucks when it happens to you and you cant get to the shot in time. I dont mind whether people apoligise or not but it's just the common courtesy I think.

I don't see the point in apologizing at all. I'm pretty sure that a lot of us hit the ball as long as possible to get as close to the edge. If we are getting "edge" shots, I think that we earned them.

Same with net shots. Some are trying to get as close as possible and/or as low as possible.

Why should we apologize, the skill in getting  as close to the edge/net should be praised, not apologized for.

well this is an interesting topic got bored reading all the comments xD Sorry :)) too long

imo.... why apologize? shouldnt you try to aim at the edge or aim for a cord ball.... it will give your opponent a hard time to hit it

if some1 can summarize everything that was written here

that would be great

thx guys

Alex and Jeff, Great to see the subject is still alive. I don't believe it is important to run my mouth again. Those that did not see the original "debate" should go back and take a peek. By the way, can't wait for your DVD's to arrive. Again, as usual, a very great site for this wonderful sport, Thanks for all of your great work and advice, steve

i c your point :) ill kip that  in mind

regarding about the skill part

what about those who practice about there serves aiming for the edges

lets say a pendelum serve

if that person where to practice and develop a good consistency of placement in hitting the edges during his service

wouldnt that be a part of his skill?

hmmm i guess it all boils down on how the other person is going to take it

i think that if you try to aim 4 the net, youll miss a great many. Plus it does not have potential, it is too hard. otherwise we will have the wttc full of nets and edges 99/100 balls!

Personally I would apologize if I know that the shot I made was a complete fluke and not intentional. In a case such as hitting the side that your opponent is wide open and skimming the edge of the table, if it's impossible to get in the first place, then probably I won't apologize in that case. 

To respond to a lot of people though about practicing to hit the edge or the net- it's an interesting concept since that's actually what they do in badminton, they train to hit the net so the birdie will drop straight down. In table tennis it's another story though. If you really think about the speed the ball's traveling in a such a small limited space, it would take pinpoint precision and timing to do intentional nets/ edges, and if anyone is able to achieve that (which I doubt) then there would be no entertainment in the sport anymore as people would just keep doing nets/ edges every single point. The whole point of sports is not just for competition but also entertainment. 

Well it seems table tennis is kind of a polite game till you keep apologizing

some guy said sorry to me because he won the point when the ball hit the net and i was further away from the table. I think it just sarcastic and i said better be

I would raise my hands and say "Sorry" haha thats my routine

Hi fellow pingskillers i always apoligise when i get a net or and edge as i believe it the right thing to do. Ettiquite is 100% important. Whether the other compeditor opologises to me well that's up to him. I am far to buisy trying to play good winning table tennis to get upset if he does not opologise for his nets and edges.

Don't worry about nets and edges forget about them.!! When you get a net or an edge just appoligise. Say sorry and move on. Also if a player gets a few nets and edges against you just let it go. Don't let it get to you. But if you get a few Just apoligise and move on.

Nets and edges may help you or go against you but at the end of the day only the better player will win. The match comes down to skills, fitness, mental skills, confidence and passion. Your skills determine wheather you win not nets and edges.

is the volley rule follow nowdatys?

Hi Utkarsh,

If you volley the ball when it is past the table it is still your point because the ball has already gone out.  This rules has changed in the last few years.

that's my weak point. i always get  annoyed when a player takes a net or edge point. please tell how can i control my anger

Utkarsh maybie try this: Just think the other player needs luck to beat you as you are a better player. So just concenteate on your table tennis one point at a time. Forget the edge or net, just channel all your energy into playing one shot at a time also think about your tactics. Focus is the key.

Remember good table tennis wins the game not nets and edges. Hope my sugestion really helps you.!! Maybie other players have a solution for you too or a better one than mine. My advice is only a sugestion so it up to you if you wan't to try it. Just trying to help you good luck Utkarsh.!

that's a good idea . thanks for tip.

I have to apologize for being lucky? I didn't know that. It's interesting to know how differently other people from other countries view things. I'm a Hispanic from south Texas in the USA and where I'm from, nobody in my school apologizes. When my opponents or even myself score by netting it or edging it, we simply laugh it off. It's common knowledge in my area. We don't laugh because we're rude, we laugh because of the excitement and joy and I do it because i think it's funny. We're a humorous bunch with a funny bone. I'm serious. Even if my opponent scores by being lucky, we both laugh and I say "that was a good one". It's no big deal.

Laughing off nets and edges is a brilliant idea, stops you from thinking why does he always get nets-edges against me. This is a great way to not get upset. Some people worry about nets and edges they can't controll then they loose their concentration.

In Australia we always or most times say sorry and apoligise for nets-edges. laughing it off is a great way to deal with nets-edges and would make everyone less adigitated at the, other players for getting a net-edge.  

Okay you may not totally agree with me but I have a few points of views on this...I understand it can be perceived as a kind of a cheap shot, but at the same point it is still a part of the game.  I personally sometimes aim for the net.   I know there was a subject on here on tactics and well that's one of my tactics to gain an edge.  I personally don't "apologize"  but at the same time I do not gloat about it either.  I think the sportsman thing to do is not to go wooohooo I got the point  but to just play the next point and move on.  After all a baseball player does not apologize to the other team for hitting a grand slam home run.  An un-catchable ball that's not fair...again part of the game.  I find net shots to be a little less impossible then edge shots but I don't get mad about them.  I accept them for what they are and move on to the next point.  Sometimes I do apologize especially if an edge shot happens off a serve or something to that nature but what I really apologize for is going for a slam or a smash and completely missing the table or hitting them dead on without hitting the table...that is something I never do intentionally and I think is a jerk move if you do.  Those absolutely I apologize for  or the edge of the bat and send it off into orbit somewhere lol  and then I just get embarrassed anyway lol.  This has definitely been an interesting conversation with a lot of interesting and valid points from both ends.

Nets edges whatever i would rather 100% of the time hit good winners and win points properly rather, than winning points by nets and edges!!!!! If i win a point by a net or an edge which happens too me frequently i just apoligize and move on. If i have had heaps of nets and edgesduring the game, after the match i will apoligise again then moove on.

I think the big thing to take from it is whether you apologize or don't  whether you want people to apologize or don't like it is to stay focused on your game and what you are doing and how you are playing.  After all you can't control what the other person is going to do or say.  I personally don't mind if people apologize for them.  On that same note I don't mind if they don't.  Either way I just say "nice point" and go on to the next service.  I can understand how in a tournament where you actually have something to lose that net and edge balls can be very frustrating and how you'd prefer to either lose or win a point by a clean shot.  It's much more rewarding to score by just an amazing return.  The one they didn't think you'd get back on the table ;)

I agree with Steve. If you want to practice edge shots, go for it!! I think you will probably miss most of the time and that will benefit me. If you can actually pull it off, then you are definitely a better player than me. I won't apologize for my edges or nets. I think it is part of the game and if it was unintentional and complete luck, I think it is sportsmanlike and mature for both people to laugh about it and go to the next point.

nick- you are much nicer and level headed though.

I feel badly after reading all of these as I actually will win all my points on the net or edge if I can!  I guess I must send out 12345555 apologies.

Its about sportsmanship...

Some players want to be ruthless and that gives them great edge and aggression for the play... they only smile, and its game a tactic so I don't complain !!!

when my friend get lucky he will be like "I'm the master"

when I hit a net ball, I feel annoyed more than my opponent. I feel like I don't deserve the point.

I see there is a true debate about this. I think that hitting the net is not on purpose, it simply happens because of rotation of the ball, amount of spin or strength given to it. In my experience, those things usually happen when you hit flat, and, if it is hard enough, if you hit the net, you will probably win the point. It is a little bit annoying, but, it wasn't intentional. Still, I think it is fair to apologize, because it wasn't your intention to play like that.

Always good to apologize after the point for and edge or net ball. Danny Seemiller Sr. has said in the past "It is pure skill.", to get them. It shows you are keeping the ball low and hitting good angles and good deep balls. It is good to say sorry, but you are quietly saying to yourself...YES!!!

In my opinion the player who committed accidentally the edge ball or net ball during a smashing rally apologizes because it interrupted a fine sequence of smashing, looping, counter spinning, etc. which every table tennis player truly loves. Every player loves a good game right? That means giving everything you've got to counter the opponents move and the same time displaying your awsome skill to counter it, and unfortunately it was disrrupted by an edge ball or net ball, so were not able to do the strategy to contibnue a good return which is sometimes frustrating and that is why some players apologize.

At least we all here in this forum must apologise... cheers

Hi there Alois,

I myself always apologise for a net or side ball by raising my hand and possibly even saying sorry out loud, but I never get annoyed if my opponent doesn't.

I do it because it's proper etiquette, but I'm never actually sorry for having won the point ;)

And the only time when I do say something to an opponent for getting a point off a net or side ball, is not because I am annoyed, but it is because I want to get him or her out of their groove - make them feel a bit bad about not having apologised ;)

Cheers,
Sam

Why would you ever apologize for something you had no control over??? You consequentialists.

Yeah, If my opponent gets either and apologizes, I tell him that's alright it is  "pure skill".

Absolutely, just out of good sportsmanship it should be done. In every racquet sport I played, it was standard practice for those that didn't put winning above everything else. I don't look for any hidden motives and I appreciate the gesture.

Never apologize.

Does your opponent have to apologize for your ball just barely misses the table, or if you hit the net and the ball does not roll over?  It seems like this type of etiquette should go both ways.  If you have to apologize for good luck then they should have to apologize for bad luck.  Or you can just move on to the next point and not say anything.

I apologize only when it happens accidentally. I do not apologize when I do it purposely.

I think it's quite simple: you apologize whenever the ball gets an unpredictable behaviour, for any reason, because your opponent didn't get a fair chance to hit it back. This is true for net shots, table edge shots, but also when you hit the ball with the edge of your racket or with your finger and the ball doesn't go in the direction your gesture indicated.

I think this is just basic politeness and yes, I get annoyed when others don't do it.

Ciao,

J-B.

I believe you should Always apoligise for a net or a edge ball, it is a showing of good sportsmanship. everyone should do it and yes, I do get annoyed by players who do not apologise for this kind of ball.

I always apologise it is good manners although inside you are relieved to have won the point if my opponent does not then it annoys a bit so no chance of me saying sorry or putting hand up after  that it becomes war Lol

I apologize but just as a habit.

I feel no emotions about it.

I also do not have problem with my opponent not apologizing for it.

I consider it my own fault if I miss let/edge shot.

I would train purposefully against such shots if it would be possible to make a let/edge consistently.

I personally apologise after hitting the net or the corner of the table, though I have won many matches by hitting the net, which I'm not sorry about! I miss more by hitting the ball into the net anyway.

I apologise for a net ball or the edge and never get annoyed if an opponent does not apologise because its his wish to apologise.

I don't apologize because its part of the game

I confess I do not usually apologize, though I understand why some consider it the polite thing to do. But in the context of a match, I feel it's kind of a pointless gesture and even a little distracting. Net shots are just going to happen. I don't think many players actively try for them. And of course a competitive player will aim toward an edge or a corner when it is advantageous to do so. I assume my opponent is playing to win just like I am, and I've never had anyone offer or ask to replay an edge or net point, so I just don't see the need for apologies when they occur.

Let's say it this way : it's not "sorry" in the sense of "I regret what I did", it's "I recognize that I have been lucky and otherwise maybe wouldn't have won the point". For example, if I managed to drive my opponent all the way back of the court on his backhand side and finish the point with a shot in his forehand side, leaving him like 2 meters from the ball, and this last shot hits the corner of the table, I won't feel the need to apologize, since he would never have touched the ball even if it had bounced normally. If in the same situation I try a drop shot, he comes back to the table in time to catch hit behind the table, but it hits the net and slows down so it bounces twice on his side because of the net only, then I'll apologize / recognize my luck, because it changed the outcome of the point.

I would have said "luck" and raised my hand (if training). No I don`t get angry if opponent doesn`t apoligize. I often here that they apoligize atleast the more experienced players.

I do apologize but don't expect the same from the opposite side